Cob: RE: Insulation

[Sojourner]

bluemoon wrote:
> 
> sojournr at missouri.org wrote:
> .
> > *sigh*  Actually we were discussing ways to get some insulation
> > into a cob building.
> 
> I may be wrong but people interested in cob building WANT sustainable
> energy. That is why the question of R value often comes up. Wood is a
> form of heating a cob house. Sustainably.

Some people just like cob.  Not everybody has an agenda.

The question of R value comes up over and over again more because people
want to make sure they can stay warm in the winter without undue effort
or expense.  YMMV.

And as I said before, heating with wood is ONLY sustainable on a SMALL
scale.

> You also said not to include the southern US. Therefore not
> everyone would be burning wood, now would they? Thus, it reduces
> the amount of people who WOULD and WANT to burn wood. This is a
> personal choice.

No, I did not say not to include the entire southern US.  I said that we
could VIRTUALLY ignore Florida and parts of S. California as their
heating requirements are low enough to ignore, FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE
DISCUSSION AT HAND, i.e., is wood heat sustainable on a large scale?  An
off-topic outgrowth of a discussion on insulation and cob, which you
brought up.

> > I personally don't think we can talk about "sustainability" while
> > ignoring 80% of the population (or more) that live in urban and
> > suburban regions.
> 
> You are correct and this was never implied.

Pardon me, but when you ignore the effects of heating with wood in urban
and suburban areas, both on the environment and the demands that would
be placed on our already dwindling reserves of uncut lumber, you are in
fact ignoring 80% or more of the population of the N. American
continent.

> > And many people WOULD think twice about switching to wood stoves or a
> > wood-fired furnace - just try to find an insurance company that will
> > carry your policy, at least here in the US.  Maybe its different in
> > Canada.
> 
> No, it is not BUT after the ice storms, most people installed wood
> stoves AS back-ups only.

In the US, it does not matter to the insurance companies whether the
intent of the installation is for backup purposes or not.  The fact is
that people in general are moving AWAY from wood as a heat source, only
a few die-hards and true believers in rural areas feel differently.

We have had severe ice storms in much of the NE US the past couple of
winters (historically these have occurred for generations) and people
are NOT installing wood stoves in droves with the intent to actually use
them to heat.  As I said, maybe its different in Canada, but in the US,
wood heat is not seen as a viable alternative for most people.

My personal opinion is that it IS viable, AND sustainable ON A SMALL
SCALE, if you have the land to support a woodlot (5 to 20 acres
depending on your climate and heating needs) but my opinion is not the
majority opinion.  I don't take that personally; you apparently do.

> > Oh come on.  That was quite clearly given as an example of why
> > what may be sustainable on a small scale is NOT sustainable on
> > a large scale.
> 
> Was it? We were discussing heating cob homes. How many are actually
> building in the city? Is your example of a guy peeing a suitable
> example to this line of discussion? NO

The point being discussed at that time, off-topic though it may have
been, which YOU brought up, was whether or not wood heat is sustainable.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, on the small scale, yes,
it is sustainable, but not on a large scale.

If you don't like the example of the difference between one guy (could
be female, for that matter) peeing in a stream as opposed to a whole
city dumping raw sewage, well, gee whiz, the world DOESN'T revolve
around you after all.  Guess you'll just have to suck it up and move on.

> Oh I forgot, everyone needs to reform immediately to help the
> environment.

Coming from someone who thinks everybody has tons of solar energy to
rely on in the winter, that's absolutely laughable.

In reality, if you REALLY want to get people to live sustainable
lifestyles, you have to accept the reality of what is, and move from
there.

You seem to have difficulty with that concept.

> Do we not need to begin somewhere? As for YOUR terms of
> sustainability,

No, we need to think about cob and insulation in terms of people living
in northern climates with little or no solar heat gain available in the
winter.

> you think concrete is not harmful to the environment. The energy
> it takes to create concrete, makes it unsustainable. It is not
> pleasing nor long lasting. Concrete does crack and chip.

Eventually, especially if its improperly mixed and set up.  And cob
weathers away.  So?

All building materials impact the environment.

Concrete has its uses.  I myself find it unaesthetic, but I'm certainly
not going to tell other people not to use it.

Now who is imposing their views of "sustainability" on everyone at
large?

> Do you understand the concept of passive solar energy??

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do, which is why I know that in a place with
little or no sun to rely on in the winter, you need the help of
insulation to keep from either burning 'way more fuel than you have to -
a wasteful practice even if you have the huge woodlot it would require
to support it.  Insulating IS a step towards sustainability.

I don't know why that bothers you so much, but if you don't like the
idea of insulating, then don't do it.  Other people feel the necessity,
so why impose YOUR values on them?

> 'nough said oh Queen of the cob list. 

'Nough said, oh very silly person.  And still not one word from you
offering help to the people who started this thread asking about
insulating a cob structure in a climate where solar gain in the winter
is negligible.

So far we have seen ideas offered for the use of sawdust, papercrete,
and straw.  I'd like to hear from somebody who has tried something like
this, or who has actual information about how to get a cob building to
work in a cloudy northern winter WITHOUT having to cut down the Hundred
Acre Wood to do it.

Frankly, in a northern climate, and in the abscence of any useful
definite advice to the contrary, I would consider a strawbale structure
with cob plaster over a straight cob building.  Then you have solved the
insulation issue altogether and you still get the look and feel of the
cob.

Holly ;-D