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[Cob] lifting vigas (JUDITH WILLIAMS

JUDITH WILLIAMS williams_judith at hotmail.com
Wed Sep 28 12:07:27 CDT 2005


I thought long and hard about using this massive thing, got advice from 
someone with a lot of experience in this area. It will be supported on 
either end by anupright log of similar size and will carry several rafter 
vigas but is certainly up to the challenge. Thanks for the help.

----Original Message Follows----
From: coblist-request at deatech.com
Reply-To: coblist at deatech.com
To: coblist at deatech.com
Subject: Coblist Digest, Vol 3, Issue 62
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:07:12 -0700

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Today's Topics:

    1. Nova Scotia Cobbing (joel cloud)
    2. Re: Calling all Nova Scotia natural builders (Matt)
    3. Re: vermiculite, pumice, perlite suppliers? (Amanda Peck)
    4. RE: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (Amanda Peck)
    5. RE: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (Patrick Newberry)
    6. Re: vermiculite, pumice, perlite suppliers? (Shannon C. Dealy)
    7. RE: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (Shannon C. Dealy)
    8. Re: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (james at thelongwayhome.net)
    9. RE: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (Patrick Newberry)
   10. RE: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (Shannon C. Dealy)
   11. Re: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (Dognyard)
   12. Re: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (Dognyard)
   13. Re: Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves? (beno)
   14. lifting vigas (JUDITH WILLIAMS)
   15. RE: lifting vigas (Amanda Peck)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:37:46 -0700
From: "joel cloud" <riorinotetsujin at warpmail.net>
Subject: [Cob] Nova Scotia Cobbing
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <1127363866.21539.243484787 at webmail.messagingengine.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Rodger,

My wife Jill is from Cape Breton, and we plan to move next year.
Once there we'll be looking for a site, and planning to build cob.

Where are you located?  What are you planning to build?


Joel Cloud

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service?




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:47:04 -0300
From: "Matt" <mblack at stfx.ca>
Subject: [Cob] Re: Calling all Nova Scotia natural builders
To: <Coblist at deatech.com>
Message-ID: <002801c5bf5a$a1938a50$2c326d8d at universijuemk6>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Rodger,
There are quite a few people in Nova Scotia doing natural building. Kim 
Thompson is located in Ship Harbour - she has extensive experience with 
straw bale building but also cob, light clay straw, earth bag etc. We had 
Kim up to our place last month for a straw bale workshop while we built a 
greenhouse. You can find her contact info at www.naturalbuilding.ca Hope 
this helps. Where are you located?
Matt


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:39:06 -0500
From: "Amanda Peck" <ap615 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Cob] vermiculite, pumice, perlite suppliers?
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <BAY102-F9E91DF3EA4475B288CDDFEC970 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed


What's the difference between masonry grade and gardening grade, (which
might not be available in the gardening sections of the stores, but rather
through greenhouse or professional garden suppliers)?
......................

Shannon wrote (snipped into nothingness)
masonery grade perlite





------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:53:39 -0500
From: "Amanda Peck" <ap615 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <BAY102-F22DE26A5D84E0D2EAEF1BEEC970 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed



Would you have to spend lots of time cutting each leaflet (that isn't what
they are called, is it?) of, removing the rib down the center, then
shredding the leaflet lengthwise?  Might tear up your hands (and feet).

And speaking of tearing up hands and feet:

Do you have those tall grasses that are everywhere in the Western Pacific
(called Sword Grass where I lived--for a reason! only thing that could get
me to wear jeans and shoes with socks when I was out wandering).  I thought
I'd seen pictures of something like that from the Caribbean.

Sugar cane--the parts they burn?

What do they use in Thailand?  Kleiworks does workshops there.
..................
Beno wrote:

I've tried to source grain stalks of any kind and the nearest source is 200
Km away. So I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with using palm
fronds. They're very sturdy but they don't have a cylindrical structure like
straw. I could experiment, of course, but I was wondering...





------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:01:36 -0400
From: "Patrick Newberry" <PNewberry at habitat.org>
Subject: RE: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: <coblist at deatech.com>
Message-ID: <4C0A49BFEDE28047ACBBDC1B102FB30848D7E8 at CJCEXC01.HFHI.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

While straw is nice, even preferred, I do not believe it is necessary.
I've seen earthen structures built in west africa with a red clay that
did not use straw and was just fine.

I'd still want to coat with lime however.


www.gypsyfarm.com

Pat.



-----Original Message-----
From: coblist-bounces at deatech.com [mailto:coblist-bounces at deatech.com]
On Behalf Of Amanda Peck
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 8:54 AM
To: coblist at deatech.com
Subject: RE: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?




Would you have to spend lots of time cutting each leaflet (that isn't
what
they are called, is it?) of, removing the rib down the center, then
shredding the leaflet lengthwise?  Might tear up your hands (and feet).

And speaking of tearing up hands and feet:

Do you have those tall grasses that are everywhere in the Western
Pacific
(called Sword Grass where I lived--for a reason! only thing that could
get
me to wear jeans and shoes with socks when I was out wandering).  I
thought
I'd seen pictures of something like that from the Caribbean.

Sugar cane--the parts they burn?

What do they use in Thailand?  Kleiworks does workshops there.
.................. Beno wrote:

I've tried to source grain stalks of any kind and the nearest source is
200
Km away. So I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with using
palm
fronds. They're very sturdy but they don't have a cylindrical structure
like
straw. I could experiment, of course, but I was wondering...



_______________________________________________
Coblist mailing list
Coblist at deatech.com http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Shannon C. Dealy" <dealy at deatech.com>
Subject: Re: [Cob] vermiculite, pumice, perlite suppliers?
To: Amanda Peck <ap615 at hotmail.com>
Cc: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0509220726070.2798 at critter.deatech.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Amanda Peck wrote:

 > What's the difference between masonry grade and gardening grade, (which 
might
 > not be available in the gardening sections of the stores, but rather 
through
 > greenhouse or professional garden suppliers)?
 > ......................
 >
 > Shannon wrote (snipped into nothingness)
 > masonery grade perlite

Horticultural grade perlite is open celled in order to absorb and retain
water for propagating plants, masonery grade is closed cell for use as
insulation.  If you use horticultural grade for a stove (as I once did
years ago), it will suck up tremendous amounts of water when you are
trying to mix it with your clay slip (if you don't use lots of water you
won't be able to get the clay slip to coat it), and it will take forever
to dry out, during which time your stove won't be working as well as it
should (after 50 hours of almost continuous running on my stove at the
time, a large percentage of the perlite was still wet, though I was
running a thicker insulation layer than normal).   Don't use horticultural
grade perlite!

Shannon C. Dealy      |               DeaTech Research Inc.
dealy at deatech.com     |          - Custom Software Development -
                        |    Embedded Systems, Real-time, Device Drivers
Phone: (800) 467-5820 | Networking, Scientific & Engineering Applications
     or: (541) 929-4089 |                  www.deatech.com



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:42:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Shannon C. Dealy" <dealy at deatech.com>
Subject: RE: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: Patrick Newberry <PNewberry at habitat.org>
Cc: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0509220736000.2798 at critter.deatech.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Patrick Newberry wrote:

 > While straw is nice, even preferred, I do not believe it is necessary.
 > I've seen earthen structures built in west africa with a red clay that
 > did not use straw and was just fine.
 >
 > I'd still want to coat with lime however.

There are earthen structures all over the world built without straw,
however, if you don't find some sort of fiber with reasonable tensile
strength to include in your mix in significant quantities, the odds of
some or all of your structure coming down in the next earthquake go
way up.

Shannon C. Dealy      |               DeaTech Research Inc.
dealy at deatech.com     |          - Custom Software Development -
                        |    Embedded Systems, Real-time, Device Drivers
Phone: (800) 467-5820 | Networking, Scientific & Engineering Applications
     or: (541) 929-4089 |                  www.deatech.com



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:37:39 -0400
From: "" <james at thelongwayhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <E1EIT8l-0003Sj-Pq at webmail06.int.bizland.net>
Content-Type: text/plain


I did a little project in Panama where we used coconut fibers: basically the 
inside of the husks shredded into strips.  It's a bit time consuming to 
prepare, but makes a reasonably long and very strong fiber.  Easier on your 
hands and feet, too!

-James

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:57 , beno <beno at web.vi> sent:

 >I've tried to source grain stalks of any kind and the nearest source is
 >200 Km away. So I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with
 >using palm fronds.






------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:59:37 -0400
From: "Patrick Newberry" <PNewberry at habitat.org>
Subject: RE: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: <coblist at deatech.com>
Message-ID: <4C0A49BFEDE28047ACBBDC1B102FB30848D7EA at CJCEXC01.HFHI.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

If one doesn't have straw and ends up building with earth only, I
believe that the shape of the building can help as well. E.G a rounded
structure would stand a better chance than a square structure. Thus most
of hut type mud building I saw where round.

Pat


<snip>
There are earthen structures all over the world built without straw,
however, if you don't find some sort of fiber with reasonable tensile
strength to include in your mix in significant quantities, the odds of
some or all of your structure coming down in the next earthquake go
way up.
</snip>



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Shannon C. Dealy" <dealy at deatech.com>
Subject: RE: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: Patrick Newberry <PNewberry at habitat.org>
Cc: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0509220950010.3532 at critter.deatech.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Patrick Newberry wrote:

 > If one doesn't have straw and ends up building with earth only, I
 > believe that the shape of the building can help as well. E.G a rounded
 > structure would stand a better chance than a square structure. Thus most
 > of hut type mud building I saw where round.

Circular will help, but the fiber is far more critical if earthquake is a
consideration.  Cob structures that have been through seismic tests or
real earthquakes, after they fracture will often continue to be held
together by the fibers, this helps to protect the occupants (and
undoubtedly reduced the amount of structural damage).  Of course in an
area where earthquakes are rare (and I think this is true for much
of Africa) and/or very mild, the local building traditions may not take
them into account.  I don't know anything about the buildings you are
refering to, but alot of the circular huts in Africa are wattle and daub,
which is basically woven twigs with a mud plaster and the twigs
would provide alot of tensile strength (there are of course all sorts of
variations on wattle and daub).

FWIW.

Shannon C. Dealy      |               DeaTech Research Inc.
dealy at deatech.com     |          - Custom Software Development -
                        |    Embedded Systems, Real-time, Device Drivers
Phone: (800) 467-5820 | Networking, Scientific & Engineering Applications
     or: (541) 929-4089 |                  www.deatech.com



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:01:05 -0600
From: Dognyard <dognyard at stockroom.ca>
Subject: Re: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <4332E351.8F084CD3 at stockroom.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I think anything that has long, tough fibers that is tradionally used to
weave for baskets/rope/clothing/mats/carpet should work fine. Does
anyone know specifically what "seagrass" is? That is used to make
carpets...maybe with a little digging you can find some source for that.

Straw is nice because it's cheap, you can get it in bulk and it's not as
labor intensive as some other forms of useable fibers...but any tough,
fibrous plant material should do...shouldn't it? The key being that the
fibers don't easily break down.

If you had access to coconut husks, hemp, or other tough plant material,
maybe you could run them through a crusher or shredder of some kind to
cut down on labor?

Karen in Alberta



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:36:39 -0600
From: Dognyard <dognyard at stockroom.ca>
Subject: Re: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <4332EBA7.D48CDBF7 at stockroom.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Maybe this will help:

http://faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/botany/fibers.htm

Kind of in intersting site anyway.

I was wondering if, in view of a lack of useable fiber material to mix
into the cob, if one couldn't just go with a type of wattle and
daub...using bamboo or willow or other type of wood to build a matrix
and just daub the clay on...that too was done in a lot of "hut"
building. It would also help to safeguard the unit from total collapse
in the face of any onslaught from Mother Nature...or big bad wolves
huffing and puffing and trying to blow the house down....

I watched a program on tv...something about the worst jobs in the middle
ages. One of them was house building, and the only reason that it was
considered "icky" was that fresh sheep/goat/horse dung was gathered to
mix into the mud. It was then daubed onto a wattled wall.

So...I guess there are always choices!

Karen in Alberta



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 04:19:58 -0400
From: beno <beno at web.vi>
Subject: Re: [Cob] Straw's Out. How About Palm Leaves?
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <4333BAAE.2070909 at web.vi>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. I think I'll investigate the
sugar cane idea but more strongly look into the coconut fiber, as the
gentleman who built a cob structure in Panama probably had the advantage
of trying out all the local tropical fibers and settled on coconut. Yes,
labor intensive, but labor here is really, really cheap ;)
Thanks,
beno




------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:27:15 -0600
From: "JUDITH WILLIAMS" <williams_judith at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Cob] lifting vigas
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <BAY103-F38C799AAC2C801E1AE9E58968B0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to lift a huge viga? It will be my
ridge beam and must weigh at least 1000 lbs, diameter of about 24" at the
wide end. A beautiful thing to behold, very old and twisted. I know about
the method of laying 2 vigas as a ramp and pulling the big one up with ropes
but it is not absolutely cyilindrical and probably would not roll. At this
point we are considering hiring a backhoe to lift it with chains. We are
definitely open to suggestions. Thanks.





------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:06:14 -0500
From: "Amanda Peck" <ap615 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Cob] lifting vigas
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <BAY102-F26AE0FBCAF8E2DC98CBDD4EC8A0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Not quite sure where to tell you to look for them, or what they're called,
but there are some rope, pulley, and pole affairs that might do that,
putting one end up at a time.

But while it sounds like it could be gorgeous, is your building engineered
for it?  How are you supporting the ridge beam?  (if you're doing rafters
meeting along a ridge, sometimes they use 1x[whatever] lumber.  And I do
know that that isn't the same as a ridge BEAM)   If you've any qualms about
it, how about using it as a support in the most visible end?

............................

Judith Williams asks:

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to lift a huge viga? It will be my
ridge beam and must weigh at least 1000 lbs, diameter of about 24" at the
wide end. A beautiful thing to behold, very old and twisted. I know about
the method of laying 2 vigas as a ramp and pulling the big one up with ropes
but it is not absolutely cyilindrical and probably would not roll. At this
point we are considering hiring a backhoe to lift it with chains. We are
definitely open to suggestions. Thanks.



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http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist





------------------------------

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End of Coblist Digest, Vol 3, Issue 62
**************************************