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Kiko Denzer on Art


[Cob] intent of code

claysandstraw kindra at claysandstraw.com
Wed May 2 01:08:09 CDT 2007 


-----Original Message-----
From: coblist-bounces at deatech.com [mailto:coblist-bounces at deatech.com]On
Behalf Of coblist-request at deatech.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:39 PM
To: coblist at deatech.com
Subject: Coblist Digest, Vol 5, Issue 26


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Today's Topics:

   1. Why bother with Building Inspectors (Tom Johnson)
   2. Re: Why bother with Building Inspectors (joe r dupont)
   3. Re: Why bother with Building Inspectors (Marlin Nissen)
   4. Re: Why bother with Building Inspectors (paul)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:38:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Johnson <arlintj at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Cob] Why bother with Building Inspectors
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <620725.76200.qm at web63505.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Building Inspectors are there to keep us safe: Sometimes from ourselves and
sometimes from the less than honest.  It is true that we can find throughout
the world excelllent examples of what a well built natural building can do,
however that is not enough to give the powers that be confidence in
something they know little about.  The law says to occupy a dwelling you
must have a certificate of occupancy.  In order to get one of those your
building must meet code.  An inspector is not going to came out to your site
and pass your building because it is so artistic and natural and you like it
and thats how they built them long ago so it must be good.  They will want
to see some objective facts about your material in a language they have been
trained to understand.  How strong is it in shear and compression.  What are
the physics of how it keeps you warm.  While they may care about how
environmentally sound it is that wont be enough for them to issue you a
permit.

  Also consider those who may be more burdened with worldly goods and may
feel the need to purchase insurance, even if just on the contents of their
home.  Do you think the insurance company will be inclined to insure
valuables stored in a structure which is not certified to be safe?  And what
about the family who must move and decides to sell their home of mud.
Leaving behind the things you have worked hard for may be ok for some but
most will want some return on their investment.  Since a substandard
structure will have little value how do you think it will be viewed by those
who levy taxes on our property.  Actually we lease it from them, try not
paying the taxes and see how long you last.

  Being able to build a home in your own style and with the materials you
choose would certainly work out much better if it could be certified as
conforming to a building code.  No fear of bulldozers.  Build a home and
build equity.  No reason to worry about whether the neighbors will turn you
in.

  With regards to building materials: The material for walls was not what I
had in mind. What about all of th systems people will use in their homes.
Like electricity, heating, plumbing, etc.  Surely some opportunities would
exist for cob or adobe or strawbale specific hardware.  Imagine what would
happen to the market for natural plasters if diy'ers could just go buy is at
the store instead of having to do it all yourself.  How about specialty
furniture which would accomodate those slightly uneven floors.  From need
comes opportunity.

  Mostly my thought revolve around the idea that the more we can have in
common the easier it will be for us to do things the way we want and the
easier it will be for others to come over to our way of thinking.

  Tom

coblist-request at deatech.com wrote:
  Send Coblist mailing list submissions to
coblist at deatech.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
coblist-request at deatech.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
coblist-owner at deatech.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Coblist digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. cob code effort (claysandstraw)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:54:45 -0500
From: "claysandstraw"
Subject: [Cob] cob code effort
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



-----Original Message-----

1. Re: Cob code effort (Ron Becker)

I fail to see why building codes are a problem. Cob is very very old
technique. We do not need any new research to demonstrate the earthen walls
are capable of supporting themselves and a roof. And Ron, building
inspectors are not naturally close minded. We all need to be careful about
pre-judging everyone, people will tend to live up to whatever expectations
we place on them.

In reguards to Tom's question about what interest building material supplies
have in cob: "cob" is not simply a building technique its a gateway to a
paradigm shift. Part of that shift is learning, looking and experimenting
with what is most avaliable at your site. Why would I pay a "building
matieral supplier" to come harvest soil from under my feet? Ideally there
is no role for such a person on a cob site.

Now the reality... where do you keep your muddy shovels in a high rise
condo? And what happens if I have to spend two days and a tank and a half
of gas driving across the country side to get the perfect color of clay, the
right sand and a bale of straw for my plaster... wouldn't it have been less
impact to just get the bag of kaolin and pigment or American Clay?

The other thing is that for better or worse, advertising is a powerful force
in american culture - can we get building suppliers to recruit for our
cause? Maybe a bag of ready mixed branded plaster is the first baby step
toward the journey of making a full paradigm shift. Baby steps, despite
their imperfection, are a crucial part of any journey.

Kindra




>>
>>
>> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Tom Johnson
>>
>> writes:
>> > Please pardon if my ignorance is showing I am new around here. I
>> > live in Western Washington. Cob does not seem to be getting much
>> > exposure around here. Any "cobbers" please respond.
>> > Is there currently a unified effort to crack the building code
>> > problem? Who is on board for research and engineering? Are there
>> > municipalities willing to risk being front runners in the search for
>> > a greener way, not in Oregon?
>> >
>> > Are there any pilot projects currently ongoing with the
>> > participation of government, education and business partners. Most
>> > importantly is there money available to do such a thing.
>> >
>> > Since cob creates a monolithic structure it seems to me that it
>> > would be a likely candidate for computer modeled analysis.
>> >
>> > Most joe lunchbuckets out there are stuck in the ordinary and
>> > conventional. How does cob appeal to them? While I appreciate the
>> > uniqueness of many of the cob structures available for view on the
>> > internet I don't see how they would appeal to most of my neighbors.
>> > How does cob create an opportunity for builders and suppliers of
>> > building materials.
>> >
>> > Acceptance and integration of natural building materials into the
>> > conventional building industry would certainly make it easier for
>> > those of us who would like to live a more natural life.
>> >
>> > In short how do we go about selling NBM to the overcarbonized?





------------------------------

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End of Coblist Digest, Vol 5, Issue 25
**************************************



---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:31:55 -0400
From: joe r dupont <joedupont at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Cob] Why bother with Building Inspectors
To: arlintj at yahoo.com
Cc: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <20070501.173156.3828.41.joedupont at juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

As much as I'm sure that Tom Johnson is good intentioned and most likely
somewhat correct.  That does not really
address the fact that the laws are more interested  in keeping property
values up or raising by making replacement cost so high
that you need insurance. The whole point of this exercise is that
supposedly we have the right for the pursuit of happiness
which should include making shelter the way we want it.  This is not to
say if you see a house  that is not inspected/approved that you should be
able to pass your dinosaur to someone else.  But by god you should be
able to build your own private home the way you want it, especially
when you look at how much energy is used to heat big homes that are
totally legal.
I am really tired of .. as Jimmy Durante use to say..  everyone wants to
get into the act.

We are allowed to smoke, drink, live on junk food, and practice dangerous
sex. and they are worried about us?????
Please..  if they are worried about us.. then we should all wear
motorcycle helmets in the car.. It would no doubt save thousands of
lives.

The best thing is to find a place where the fascists won't bother you...
I don't want to be safe.. If I wanted to be safe i would not drive a
small car, fly Cessnas and drive motorcycles I would not canoe.
If you want us to put a mandatory warning sign on any home made shack
fine...  thus if you come in.. it is at your own risk.
Yet  every year Americans spray the hell out of their homes to kill bugs
and those households have a much higher rate of
cancer than those who don't spray. Does that bother the government.. Hell
no.. more medical expenses the save the damned..
Our food is full of neat stuff that will mess us up.

Natural building like COB is the last frontier of our freedoms and we
can't accept the justification of inspectors lightly.
Yes I'm sure that they are nice people , but they work for the MAN  and
are out to get you.
On commercial buildings  go bless them.. anyone paying for some service
should be entitled to some assurance of safety..
like they were in the world trade centers...
But for private homes  for self use..  for the most part... unless the
builder is a total idiot  are just another way to take bread from
your mouth..

Building your home .. your way is a form of expression under the first
amendment...  maybe you could call it civil disobedience..
if you can burn a flag you should be able to build an simple shack that
burns..

I'm not venting.. and as I stated before this tirade that most likely
Mr. Johnson might be 100 % correct.. as to how wonderful
having a 100% to code structure is.. But  jails are up to code too.   I'm
sure that Moslemism where they intern bodies  and morgues are too.
I'm not impressed..  I just feel that  we should not take establishment
comments lightly..No from the stand point of not having to
have your shack demolished at your expense.. that is another issue..  and
it is a matter of practicality.. and  Mr. Johnson's advise
will eliminate worrying about that..

but for us dreamers.... looking for that last chance of self
expression...  if we wanted it simple and safe we would by a condo
and live in hell.

73's
joe dupont

On Tue, 1 May 2007 13:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Tom Johnson <arlintj at yahoo.com>
writes:
> Building Inspectors are there to keep us safe: Sometimes from
> ourselves and sometimes from the less than honest.  It is true that
> we can find throughout the world excelllent examples of what a well
> built natural building can do, however that is not enough to give
> the powers that be confidence in something they know little about.
> The law says to occupy a dwelling you must have a certificate of
> occupancy.  In order to get one of those your building must meet
> code.  An inspector is not going to came out to your site and pass
> your building because it is so artistic and natural and you like it
> and thats how they built them long ago so it must be good.  They
> will want to see some objective facts about your material in a
> language they have been trained to understand.  How strong is it in
> shear and compression.  What are the physics of how it keeps you
> warm.  While they may care about how environmentally sound it is
> that wont be enough for them to issue you a permit.
>
>   Also consider those who may be more burdened with worldly goods
> and may feel the need to purchase insurance, even if just on the
> contents of their home.  Do you think the insurance company will be
> inclined to insure valuables stored in a structure which is not
> certified to be safe?  And what about the family who must move and
> decides to sell their home of mud. Leaving behind the things you
> have worked hard for may be ok for some but most will want some
> return on their investment.  Since a substandard structure will have
> little value how do you think it will be viewed by those who levy
> taxes on our property.  Actually we lease it from them, try not
> paying the taxes and see how long you last.
>
>   Being able to build a home in your own style and with the
> materials you choose would certainly work out much better if it could
> be certified as conforming to a building code.  No fear of
> bulldozers.  Build a home and build equity.  No reason to worry
> about whether the neighbors will turn you in.
>
>   With regards to building materials: The material for walls was not
> what I had in mind. What about all of th systems people will use in
> their homes. Like electricity, heating, plumbing, etc.  Surely some
> opportunities would exist for cob or adobe or strawbale specific
> hardware.  Imagine what would happen to the market for natural
> plasters if diy'ers could just go buy is at the store instead of
> having to do it all yourself.  How about specialty furniture which
> would accomodate those slightly uneven floors.  From need comes
> opportunity.
>
>   Mostly my thought revolve around the idea that the more we can
> have in common the easier it will be for us to do things the way we
> want and the easier it will be for others to come over to our way of
> thinking.
>
>   Tom
>
> coblist-request at deatech.com wrote:
>   Send Coblist mailing list submissions to
> coblist at deatech.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> coblist-request at deatech.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> coblist-owner at deatech.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Coblist digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. cob code effort (claysandstraw)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:54:45 -0500
> From: "claysandstraw"
> Subject: [Cob] cob code effort
> To:
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> 1. Re: Cob code effort (Ron Becker)
>
> I fail to see why building codes are a problem. Cob is very very
> old
> technique. We do not need any new research to demonstrate the
> earthen walls
> are capable of supporting themselves and a roof. And Ron, building
> inspectors are not naturally close minded. We all need to be careful
> about
> pre-judging everyone, people will tend to live up to whatever
> expectations
> we place on them.
>
> In reguards to Tom's question about what interest building material
> supplies
> have in cob: "cob" is not simply a building technique its a gateway
> to a
> paradigm shift. Part of that shift is learning, looking and
> experimenting
> with what is most avaliable at your site. Why would I pay a
> "building
> matieral supplier" to come harvest soil from under my feet? Ideally
> there
> is no role for such a person on a cob site.
>
> Now the reality... where do you keep your muddy shovels in a high
> rise
> condo? And what happens if I have to spend two days and a tank and a
> half
> of gas driving across the country side to get the perfect color of
> clay, the
> right sand and a bale of straw for my plaster... wouldn't it have
> been less
> impact to just get the bag of kaolin and pigment or American Clay?
>
> The other thing is that for better or worse, advertising is a
> powerful force
> in american culture - can we get building suppliers to recruit for
> our
> cause? Maybe a bag of ready mixed branded plaster is the first baby
> step
> toward the journey of making a full paradigm shift. Baby steps,
> despite
> their imperfection, are a crucial part of any journey.
>
> Kindra
>
>
>
>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Tom Johnson
> >>
> >> writes:
> >> > Please pardon if my ignorance is showing I am new around here.
> I
> >> > live in Western Washington. Cob does not seem to be getting
> much
> >> > exposure around here. Any "cobbers" please respond.
> >> > Is there currently a unified effort to crack the building code
> >> > problem? Who is on board for research and engineering? Are
> there
> >> > municipalities willing to risk being front runners in the
> search for
> >> > a greener way, not in Oregon?
> >> >
> >> > Are there any pilot projects currently ongoing with the
> >> > participation of government, education and business partners.
> Most
> >> > importantly is there money available to do such a thing.
> >> >
> >> > Since cob creates a monolithic structure it seems to me that
> it
> >> > would be a likely candidate for computer modeled analysis.
> >> >
> >> > Most joe lunchbuckets out there are stuck in the ordinary and
> >> > conventional. How does cob appeal to them? While I appreciate
> the
> >> > uniqueness of many of the cob structures available for view on
> the
> >> > internet I don't see how they would appeal to most of my
> neighbors.
> >> > How does cob create an opportunity for builders and suppliers
> of
> >> > building materials.
> >> >
> >> > Acceptance and integration of natural building materials into
> the
> >> > conventional building industry would certainly make it easier
> for
> >> > those of us who would like to live a more natural life.
> >> >
> >> > In short how do we go about selling NBM to the overcarbonized?
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Coblist mailing list
> Coblist at deatech.com
> http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist
>
>
> End of Coblist Digest, Vol 5, Issue 25
> **************************************
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>  Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> _______________________________________________
> Coblist mailing list
> Coblist at deatech.com
> http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marlin Nissen <marlin_nissen at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Cob] Why bother with Building Inspectors
To: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <473251.54989.qm at web35315.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

SOME building inspectors serve the functions of protecting us....many I've
met are simply not very thorough and collect checks at closing of
mortgages...I've had several homes, almost all of which I could inspect
better then the paid inspector for the mortgage company.

  With that said, I find the question of codes with Cob an excercise in
frustration as it's been stated that Cob doesn't conform to usual material
data analysis. YET it can be overbuilt and stronger then 2x2 trailers etc.
that DO conform to code (try burn a Cob building vs. a trailer OR worse yet
compare in a windstorm).

  My (cynical) belief is that we could have building inspections that were
FAIR if an inspector could come out to your building, see that you built it
with many redundant supports, test the material with his own hands and PASS
the building. HOWEVER this leaves them open to the almighty lawsuit IF it
falls down upon you and they can't verify that you used CLEAR CUT DOUGLAS
FIR, STAMPED/GRADED ETC ETC ETC. when they passed the building originally.
The code requirement usually force one into using all NEW lumber as well
regardless of the quality of the used lumber.

  The great irony is many passed building will burn down, fall down, rot and
of course poison the air of the inhabitants but this will NOT be questioned
as it is STATUS quo. If you're not allowed to burn yourself with hot coffee
without being able to sue you're sure not capable of building your own
dwelling.................

  Henry David Thoreau
  "There is some of the same fitness in a man's building his own house that
there is in a bird's building its own nest. Who knows but if men constructed
their dwellings with their own hands, and provided food for themselves and
families simply and honestly enough, the poetic faculty would be universally
developed, as birds universally sing when they are so engaged? But alas! we
do like cowbirds and cuckoos, which lay their eggs in nests which other
birds have built, and cheer no traveller with their chattering and unmusical
notes. Shall we forever resign the pleasure of construction to the
carpenter? What does architecture amount to in the experience of the mass of
men? I never in all my walks came across a man engaged in so simple and
natural an occupation as building his house."



  Marlin




=========================

  "And so long as they were at war, their power was preserved, but when they
had attained empire
they fell, for of the arts of peace they knew nothing, and had never engaged
in any employment higher
than war." Aristotle on Politics




---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:35:44 -0400
From: "paul" <dotpaul at paulleblanc.net>
Subject: Re: [Cob] Why bother with Building Inspectors
To: <arlintj at yahoo.com>,	"joe r dupont" <joedupont at juno.com>
Cc: coblist at deatech.com
Message-ID: <004401c78c51$d27aa0c0$0a00a8c0 at dragonfly>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Follow the lines.  Mooooooo.

Baaaaaaa.  Baaaaaa.  Little lambie wants to run to mother.

Moooo.  Just keep moving Bessie and do what the butcher says.

Didn't Pink Floyd (Animals) try to warn us 30 years ago?  Get down, Bessie,
your moment has arrived.


In my observation the code has evolved out of necessity to protect future
homeowners from shady contractor practices.  My guess is that about 99.9% of
all houses built today are built by someone other than the homeowner, and in
general the homeowner has neither the skill, knowledge or interest to watch
over the project. Definately not the best scenario in my opinon, but there
it is.  Our codes serve the majority.

Owner-builders, the endangered species that they are, occupy an entirely
different scenario.  A few states recognize this, its brilliant.  Forget a
"cob code", a homeowner code allows an owner builder to accept liability for
their own construction.

I challenge the idea that anyone should be allowed to put up whatever pile
of crap/art/self expression they want.  Ok, so if the shelter you built
falls in on you: evoloution at work eh? story over?  But who gets to clean
up your caved in building and all the decaying piles of scavenged materials
covered in tarps piled around your site?  With all the energy that goes into
creating a structure we should make it durable enough to serve several
generations.     Kindra