Cob: Re: Please Help, listers please read this

[Mary Zan Warren]

Liberaro at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/30/99 10:42:03 PM EST, mzan at arn.net writes:
> 
> Thank you very much for responding to my call for help.  However, I cannot
> BELIEVE the response I got from you.  I decided to post your letter to me,
> and my response, to the cob list as a whole because I believe that there are
> other people on the list who could add to this discussion, help me defend
> myself, and help calm your fears about the safety of my children.  PLEASE be
> clear, I love my children and care about their health, safety and welfare
> more than ANY other person in the world.
> 
> << I am on the cob list, and just received your letter above. I'm not a
>  building code inspector nor a lawyer and I deeply sympathize with you.
>  However, I am curious as we are planning on building a cob house someday.
>  What sort of setup do you have for a bathroom and how/where do you get
>  your water? Is your house in town?>>
> 
> we have a 1500 gal. underground cement cistern (in its own house) for shower,
> dish, and general washing up water.  it is regularly filled with tap water
> from town by a local water delivery company.  my husband works at the health
> food store in town and so we get all of our drinking and cooking water from
> there (in the form of several 5 gal jugs per week).  we have a sump pump with
> a garden hose attached to the cistern and we turn the pump on and off through
> a breaker switch in the house, which is how we fill the 5 gal. "solar shower"
> which is hanging above the kitchen sink.  we keep that filled and voila we
> have running water, albeit 5 gallons at a time.  And No, our house is not in
> town, we are far outside of town in the county.  regarding our bathroom
> facilities - we have 40 acres.
> 
> <<Having done business with the building code inspector recently on the other
> side of the fence I could understand why there would even be codes. If you're
> using an open latrine or
>  port-a-potties, there could be a serious health hazzard to you, your  baby,
> your whole family and all those who live in close proximity with you. Even
> urine seeping into the ground from 1,000 ft in distance is harmful and
> hazzardous to the health of everyone downstream ....or next door. >>
> 
> I and my entire family eat nothing but organic food and none of us has been
> sick in forever, we're healthy as horses.  as i mentioned above, we have 40
> acres of land, as for the comment that "urine seeping into the ground from
> 1,000 ft distance is harmful and hazzardous to the health of everyone
> downstream".... the nearest dirt road is over 3,000 ft. away, there is nobody
> next door, and i don't pee in a stream (there are none even if i wanted to).
> furthermore, it was my understanding that urine was sterile (unless there is
> some specific disease present).  as a matter of fact, Gandhi started the day
> by drinking some of his own urine (i'm not advocating this).
> 
> <<Even when you go camping, there are rules to follow about urine and feces
> for the health sake of everyone.>>
> 
> When one goes camping there is no way to know what the health status is of
> the people who were there before you.  not so the case with my land.
> 
> << I hope you can get this matter settled in an honest and forthright way
> without trying to 'evade' the rules or the system because believe me, they
> are there for your own sake
>  as well as your baby's safety.>>
> 
> Respectfully, *I* am here for my baby's safety.
> 
> << People can actually die from the kind of diseases you can get from
> contaminated water, earth, etc that is contaminated from urine or feces or
> old dirty water.>>
> 
> I am not consuming contaminated water, i wouldn't think of it; and i disagree
> that we are contaminating the earth.  i am just curious, do my 4 dogs and 6
> cats and hundreds of head of cattle on property near mine that pee and poop
> all over the land worry you, or is it just us? In fact, all of our nearest
> neighbors have horses, one single horse (and there are many) produces more
> urine and feces than my entire family in any given day.
> 
> << Please remember these rules are written to protect you, not to harm you.
> Try to rectify
>  your sanitary methods and bring them up to code.>>
> 
> we moved from Denver where we lived in a very nice condominium.  This condo,
> however, happened to be located right underneath the Brown Cloud which is
> denver's air.  That brown cloud raises childhood cancer and asthma rates in
> Denver, it is the worst air in the country second only to LA.  In addition,
> this lovely place happened to be *infested* with cockroaches (talk about
> DISEASES!), and was made beautiful by plush toxic carpet, and lovely
> formaldahyde countertops, which outgassed all day, every day etc. etc.  In
> contrast, out here we have fresh air - all we can suck up - absolutely no
> cockroaches, and minimal outgassing of toxic building materials.  which
> living situation do you think that the laws set out to "protect me, not harm
> me" sanction as the healthful living environment?  despite the fact that we
> may pee outside, i believe that our health is more protected out here.
> 
> << Now to tell you my story about being on the other side of the building
> code inspector's
>  inspection.  My husband and I were trying to buy a nice looking, reasonable
> priced
>  house for around $45,000 in a very nice, small town. When the house
> inspector came out to inspect the house we were 'buying', he found that the
> electricity was arching in the attic, there were open splices of all kinds
> and sorts, there was a gas leak in the yard, and seeping sewer pipes, leaking
> out onto the lawn near the alley, un-noticed and so small
>  you could hardly have ever smelled anything. Well, the house inspector
>  said if we had bought that house without an inspection, we probably
>  wouldn't have lived there more than a few weeks before it either blew up
>  or we were electrocuted or there was a flash fire, then an explosion, and
>  or 17 different diseases available, all life threatening, from the
>  leaking sewer pipe out back. So I am very thankful there are building
>  code inspectors out there who risk angry people wanting their 'rights' to
>  put others in danger around them.>>
> 
> I am very glad you didn't buy that house.  for the record, i would never ever
> advocate anyone buying a house without it being inspected for SAFETY.  prior
> to buying this place we had the cistern, septic, and electric all checked for
> usability and safety.  i am not asking for the "right" to "put others in
> danger" around me.  i am asking for the right to not be made homeless (or
> worse, have my children ripped from me) because someone out there is trying
> to "protect" me.  with those kinds of friends, who needs enemies!
> 
> << Please, Please, reconsider your baby's safety at this point in time. Is it
> fair to your own child to make him/her live under those dangerous
> conditions?>>
> 
> I must admit that you really frighten me with this sentence above.  my baby's
> safety (all 3 of my children's safety) is far more important to me than it
> could ever be to you.  i am *most certainly not* making them living under
> dangerous conditions of any kind.  please be clear on this.
> 
> << Be compliable with the building code inspector and he will give you so
> many days to get
>  alternate plumbing, etc. and the more you try to hide and twist around to
> suit your own answers, the harder things will be on your own child. I work
> for the child protective services here in Texas and I can't imagine exposing
> my child to conditions as unhealthy as that for an exptended period of time.>>
> 
> Again, i must reiterate:  Things Are Not Hard On My Children.  i must ask,
> you can't imagine exposing your child to conditions as unhealthy as WHAT?  no
> one is diseased, we have 40 acres, far far away from the house and near
> absolutely no water supply of any kind, which to fertilize.  when scattered
> far and wide *nothing* remains of any given waste product within about 48
> hrs, by the way.
> 
> << Besides there are so many diseases out there now that can kill you, that
> you can't get over, it's well worth the cost of plumbing or....perhaps moving
> until you can afford plumbing. I hope you will reconsider your child's safety
> as well as your own and as well as your
>  neighbors.>>
> 
> there may be a lot of diseases out there that can kill you - however,
> thankfully, no one in my family has them!  sure, plumbing is well worth the
> cost -- i am not stubbornly refusing to install plumbing although my savings
> account spilleth over, we cannot afford it yet.  as for moving, we can't
> afford rent, we have a mortgage already.
> 
> << By the way, are you aware that outdoor toliets and outhouses can explode
> from a single match and blow up one whole block in area? Is it really worth
> it? rethink this, please. sincerely mz >>
> 
> is this really a problem that is facing outhouse users in this country??  i
> heard the other day on National Public Radio that there are still something
> like 250,000 households in this country who rely exclusively on outhouses.  i
> visited a commune in missouri a few years back that had about 70 full-time
> residents, they have used outhouses exclusively at that community for 25+
> years without incident, including explosion.  i feel quite safe, actually.
> 
> i am really quite concerned now that somebody who believes they know what is
> best for me and my kids will do something that will result in my family being
> ripped apart (which would crush my kids like nothing else could).  i BEG you,
> to take back my entire letter and pretend you never heard of me, please.
> 
> trinaDear Trina: thank you for taking the time to answer my letter and explain 
things. I think if you will go back and re-read your very first letter to 
the cob list, you will see how it really sounds. It 'sounded' as if you 
were living in an old garage somewhere, hiding out from the building code 
inspector and not having proper facilities. You should have explained all 
this in your FIRST letter. It sounds as if you are afraid of me. I dont 
have any desire to try to hunt you down or turn you in the welfare for 
any reason. I do however, question your decision to not install plumbing 
when you do have money in the bank to do so. That is something that I 
wouldn't do to my own kids. But you are you and you alone, along with 
your children, must live with the choices that you are making about how 
to live. So that will be up to you. Since you posted my letter without my 
permission on the cob list, I've received all kinds of mail from people 
who agree with me about the dangers of pooping on the ground for a 
permanent solution, not a temporary weekend 'camping' experience. Also I 
received one nasty hate letter from a 'cobber? who thinks its mature to 
call people cockroaches. If I was the sort of person that this letter 
writer is, I would plaster his name all over the cob list. Name calling 
is so childish. I assumed by your posting your problem on the cob list 
that it was open for discussion. I tried discretion with you but you took 
it upon yourself to post my private letter to you for the world to see, 
so now I assume you want this public and am confused by the fact that NOW 
you want me to forget you. This is confusing.  I think you probably ought 
to do more reasearch from reliable sources about your choice and be open 
to change if need be for your sake as well as your children's. But then 
again, that's your decision. 
Did I mention that once my husband and 3 kids lived in a terrible old tin 
house with only a woodstove to warm us? WE enjoyed the lifestyle. WE had 
a septic tank. We noticed the grass grew so well over it, we planted a 
garden there on top of it, all in ignorance of course, about 20 years 
ago, and we had a bumper crop of veggies. But.....we all kept getting 
sick and staying sick with such things as staph infections, bacterial 
infections, and eventually my baby girl had to be hospitalized with a 
strange form of bacteria. After the dr sent it to the lab, we found out 
that it had come from eating the vegetables planted over the top of the 
septic system. ANd it was below ground!!! I would have never knowingly 
risked my baby's life in order to have a garden there. WE had someone 
check out the septic system and it had improperly been installed and was 
leaking germs, bacteria into the ground all around the house. the 
building code inspector came and said we had to install a new septic 
system or move. We lived in a small community of about 150, almost in the 
country. WE had bought that house for $15,000. Took a loss of 10,000 on 
it when we had to sell it in order to move. But...my children became 
healthier when we left and had less infections, etc. So, since I 
personally can't put a price tag on a human life, especially my 
childrens, I can honestly look back and say, yes, the $10,000 loss really 
hurt us, really set us back, but at least no one became ill again. to me, 
it was worth it. I guess you have to ask yourself if the cost of indoor 
plumbing is worth keeping your kids healthy or keeping the welfare off 
your back, IF that is the case. BUt please don't think you have anything 
to fear from me, I was only trying to help. You can't print a letter like 
yours on a national cob list and then say, hey, forget me. It doesn't 
happen that way. By the way, I wanted to ask. How old are your children 
and how do THEY Feel about not having toliet facilities? 
Since I know you will probably put this one on the entire cob list too, 
let me address the issue of the man who sent me the nasty letter calling 
me filthy names. WHat a childish way to voice your opinion. Is that all 
you've learned in your adult life, or are you an adult? I will not open 
any letters from you so don't bother to send them. If you can't discuss 
something reasonably in an adult way, I will not discuss them with you. 
It shows your mental age as well as your education level and how you 
handle and deal with issues that make you uncomfortable, by name calling. 
that's what my 4 year old granchildren do. God bless you anyway.

Trina, I wish you the best of luck but in my state, the building code 
inspectors can't inspect something outside the city limits. I'm surprised 
that since you live out, they could even make such a visit. I'll be 
praying for you and your little family. I understand your plight. Be 
careful about decisions affecting your children. THey're only here one 
time around. God bless you and help you.
sincerely mz