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[Cob] RE: Coblist Digest, Vol 2, Issue 72Ian Marcuse dtebb at alternatives.comTue Aug 17 23:56:09 CDT 2004
Hi All, I have a little cob guesthouse in Vancouver, Canada. Cobbing visitors are welcome to stay there. No charge. Ian Marcuse www.alternatives.com/cob-building > Hi! > > I'm wondering who else is going to BC. What are people doing about > beds and overnights? Are people camping, if so where? > > Also I read Dulane's request and if you still need help I don't have > any experience buts lots of time. I live near Olympia. > >From: coblist-request at deatech.com > >Reply-To: coblist at deatech.com > >To: coblist at deatech.com > >Subject: Coblist Digest, Vol 2, Issue 72 > >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:34:07 -0700 > > > >Send Coblist mailing list submissions to > > coblist at deatech.com > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > coblist-request at deatech.com > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > coblist-owner at deatech.com > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of Coblist digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: anybody need free labor? (who_dat at ephytol.com) > > 2. Re: anybody need free labor? (Dorothy Bothne) > > 3. Seattle Cobbing Project (Dulane) > > 4. RE: anybody need free labor? (Abe Connally) > > 5. Re: Cobbing in N. Seattle (Dulane) > > 6. Stone in cob (Brent Flaco Wilson) > > 7. Re: Clay&Bool- Stone in cob (dirtcheapbuilder-Charmaine > Taylor) > > 8. Re: Clay&Bool- Stone in cob (Joseph R Dupont) > > 9. RE: clay& bool (Mary Lou McFarland) > > 10. RE: Stone in cob (Amanda Peck) > > 11. RE: RE: Stone in cob (Bonnie Morse) > > 12. Re: RE: Stone in cob (otherfish) > > 13. Re: RE: Stone in cob (phil) > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:31:12 -0500 > >From: <who_dat at ephytol.com> > >Subject: Re: [Cob] anybody need free labor? > >To: <abe at abeconnally.com>, <coblist at deatech.com> > >Message-ID: <001d01c48185$3efd07e0$ed18fea9 at red> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Hello all! (first post here =) > > > >Abe do you have planned dates you intend to start cobbing? I live in > the > >Dallas area but would gladly make the drive to help and learn, > especially > >since I have yet to get my feet muddy ;) > > > >Eric > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Abe Connally" <abe at abeconnally.com> > >To: <coblist at deatech.com> > >Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 3:05 PM > >Subject: RE: [Cob] anybody need free labor? > > > > > > > We are building a cob house and would love some newbies to come > out and > >learn! > > > We are located in the Big Bend Region of Texas. > > > > > > If anyone wants to cob, we have plenty!!! > > > > > > Abe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 2 > >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:51:40 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Dorothy Bothne <dbothne54 at yahoo.com> > >Subject: Re: [Cob] anybody need free labor? > >To: coblist at deatech.com > >Message-ID: <20040813235140.73939.qmail at web41808.mail.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > >Eric, > >we're a couple of hours south of you (just north of > >austin) and we're cobbing every weekend. we always > >welcome the help too. > >Dorothy > > > > > >--- who_dat at ephytol.com wrote: > > > > > Hello all! (first post here =) > > > > > > Abe do you have planned dates you intend to start > > > cobbing? I live in the > > > Dallas area but would gladly make the drive to help > > > and learn, especially > > > since I have yet to get my feet muddy ;) > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 3 > >Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:32:26 -0700 > >From: "Dulane" <silkworm at spiderhollow.com> > >Subject: [Cob] Seattle Cobbing Project > >To: "Cob" <coblist at deatech.com> > >Message-ID: <003301c48224$ab20bee0$6501a8c0 at attbi.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Hello, > >I have a small garden project and am looking for help in the north > Seattle > >area. I will pay $10 per hour for several days work. I am hoping for > someone > >with experience. There is room here for camping if that helps. > >Dulane > > > >There are solutions to the major problems of our time, some of them > even > >simple. But they require a radical shift in our perceptions, our > thinking, > >and our values. > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 4 > >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:25:07 -0500 > >From: "Abe Connally" <abe at abeconnally.com> > >Subject: RE: [Cob] anybody need free labor? > >To: <who_dat at ephytol.com>, "Coblist" <coblist at deatech.com> > >Message-ID: <MBBBIFEBNJKOPBJIMPHKCEAAELAA.abe at abeconnally.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Eric, > > > >We are cobbing right now. We should be cobbing through October, and > then we > >will be cobbing again in March through June of next year. Come on > down anytime! > >We have plenty of cob! > > > >Abe > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: who_dat at ephytol.com [mailto:who_dat at ephytol.com] > >Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 5:31 PM > >To: abe at abeconnally.com; coblist at deatech.com > >Subject: Re: [Cob] anybody need free labor? > > > > > >Hello all! (first post here =) > > > >Abe do you have planned dates you intend to start cobbing? I live in > the > >Dallas area but would gladly make the drive to help and learn, > especially > >since I have yet to get my feet muddy ;) > > > >Eric > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Abe Connally" <abe at abeconnally.com> > >To: <coblist at deatech.com> > >Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 3:05 PM > >Subject: RE: [Cob] anybody need free labor? > > > > > > > We are building a cob house and would love some newbies to come > out and > >learn! > > > We are located in the Big Bend Region of Texas. > > > > > > If anyone wants to cob, we have plenty!!! > > > > > > Abe > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003 > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 5 > >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:50:25 -0700 > >From: "Dulane" <silkworm at spiderhollow.com> > >Subject: [Cob] Re: Cobbing in N. Seattle > >To: "Cob" <coblist at deatech.com> > >Message-ID: <003801c48333$665f2a20$6501a8c0 at attbi.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >I've had a wonderful response to my request for help. I will respond > to > >folks right away. I probably will not need anyone else, judging by > the > >emails already received. > >This is a great email forum. Active and full of good tips and > knowledge. > >Thanks, > >Dulane > > > >There are solutions to the major problems of our time, some of them > even > >simple. But they require a radical shift in our perceptions, our > thinking, > >and our values. > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 6 > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:41:39 +0000 > >From: "Brent Flaco Wilson" <realm_fitness at hotmail.com> > >Subject: [Cob] Stone in cob > >To: ap615 at hotmail.com, coblist.to.theq at xoxy.net, coblist at deatech.com > >Message-ID: <BAY9-F30CdUxX42U53j00012fa5 at hotmail.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > > >Has anyone ever built a home using stones with cob as mortar? Given > you > >have a rubble trench footing. Also interested in "plastering a cob > home on > >the south facing sidewith stone, perhaps like veneer stones, flag > stones, or > >mayb embedding smooth flat stones gatherd from the coast. The stones > will > >be great for insulation-radiation purposes. I guess one could do a > whole > >room on the interior that way with stones, coral, shells, and > starfish for > >the bathroom beach effect. I have seen cob benches in portland with > mosaic > >work so this idea of stones seems reasonable? > > > > > > >From: "Amanda Peck" <ap615 at hotmail.com> > > >To: coblist.to.theq at xoxy.net, coblist at deatech.com > > >Subject: RE: [Cob] Re: Cob in British Columbia > > >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:31:04 -0500 > > > > > > > > >As far as I can tell, the big thing with cob (among many other > styles of > > >building, including conventional) is moisture control. You don't > want > > >hydraulic pressure on it--or its foundation, let alone streams of > water > > >washing down the hill onto it. Cob tempers indoor humidity pretty > well, > > >but does it do well in the rain forest (tropical or > temperate)? Ask > > >somebody, keep your eyes open. (how humid is the area with cob > houses in > > >New Zealand? how do those old old old cob houses in Britain > do) You could > > >report back. > > > > > >If you can keep moisture out/off of it, and are able to put a > really solid > > >base down, I'd think that most anything would take an earthen > floor. Not > > >for your second story condo, especially if it was the one in > Nashville TN > > >that was rumored to sway before the brick facing was put up. > > > > > >Actually, maybe not for second stories period. I'm not planning > it. > > > > > >............ > > >Patrick and Chris wrote: > > > > > >---------- > > >Thanks to all (especially Ian for the enjoyable phone > conversation!) for > > >the links, information, and inspiration. > > > > > >We're packing to head up into BC shortly, so will be in pondering > mode for > > >a bit. A couple of things I'll be pondering (and would welcome > comment > > >upon). > > >- Earthen floors for thermal mass in a more conventional structure > > >- Covering strawbales with cob (does the cob share the > load-bearing?) > > >- Has anyone ever considered interior walls of cob in a > conventional > > >structure (if cob is not feasible wherever we end up)? > > > > > >I imagine we'll be in brainstorming mode for some time. Thanks for > your > > >help and thoughts - this list is fascinating! > > > > > >Cheers! > > > - Patrick & Chris > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Coblist mailing list > > >Coblist at deatech.com > > >http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > >Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > > >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Coblist mailing list > > >Coblist at deatech.com > > >http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on > how to > >get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 7 > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:03:54 -0700 > >From: dirtcheapbuilder-Charmaine Taylor <tms at northcoast.com> > >Subject: Re: [Cob] Clay&Bool- Stone in cob > >To: "Brent Flaco Wilson" <realm_fitness at hotmail.com> > >Cc: coblist at deatech.com, coblist.to.theq at xoxy.net > >Message-ID: <66CC2C82-EFBF-11D8-8EBB-000D93C26BB0 at northcoast.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > >This is an old Scottish method called "Clay & Bool" where stones > are > >embedded in a clay-cob mix. > >It will be very very rustic, and there may be air gaps after some > >shrinkage...but you could try it. > > > >below is an image of a riverstone and clay wall done in 1800's in > >Placerville CA..it is now a trendy art cafe', and they put in a brick > >surround, with an entry door. > > > >I can srcatch the clay out with a fingernail but it is very durable > as > >evidenced by it's current use the temp is very comfortable inside, > >cool, whern it is 105 deg, outside.. > > > >http://www.northcoast.com/~tms/PLACER~1.JPG > > > > > Charmaine Taylor Publishing books at dirtcheapbuilder.com > >PO Box 375 Cutten CA 95534 USA -- 707-441-1632 > >www.dirtcheapbuilder.com & www.papercrete.com > >NEW! dirtcheapbuilder CD Info- 4,000+ Pdf pages- $7. > > > > > >On Aug 16, 2004, at 12:41 PM, Brent Flaco Wilson wrote: > > > > > Has anyone ever built a home using stones with cob as > mortar? Given > > > you have a rubble trench footing. Also interested in "plastering > a > > > cob home on the south facing sidewith stone, perhaps like veneer > > > stones, flag stones, or mayb embedding smooth flat stones gatherd > from > > > the coast. The stones will be great for insulation-radiation > > > purposes. I guess one could do a whole room on the interior that > way > > > with stones, coral, shells, and starfish for the bathroom beach > > > effect. I have seen cob benches in portland with mosaic work so > this > > > idea of stones seems reasonable? > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 8 > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:09:47 -0400 > >From: Joseph R Dupont <joedupont at juno.com> > >Subject: Re: [Cob] Clay&Bool- Stone in cob > >To: tms at northcoast.com > >Cc: realm_fitness at hotmail.com, coblist at deatech.com, > > coblist.to.theq at xoxy.net > >Message-ID: <20040816.160956.-1991625.8.joedupont at juno.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > >has anyone mixed in paperpulp to COB as a reinforcer? > >On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:03:54 -0700 dirtcheapbuilder-Charmaine Taylor > ><tms at northcoast.com> writes: > > > This is an old Scottish method called "Clay & Bool" where > stones > > > are > > > embedded in a clay-cob mix. > > > It will be very very rustic, and there may be air gaps after some > > > shrinkage...but you could try it. > > > > > > below is an image of a riverstone and clay wall done in 1800's in > > > Placerville CA..it is now a trendy art cafe', and they put in a > > > brick > > > surround, with an entry door. > > > > > > I can srcatch the clay out with a fingernail but it is very > durable > > > as > > > evidenced by it's current use the temp is very comfortable inside, > > > cool, whern it is 105 deg, outside.. > > > > > > http://www.northcoast.com/~tms/PLACER~1.JPG > > > > > > > Charmaine Taylor Publishing books at dirtcheapbuilder.com > > > PO Box 375 Cutten CA 95534 USA -- 707-441-1632 > > > www.dirtcheapbuilder.com & www.papercrete.com > > > NEW! dirtcheapbuilder CD Info- 4,000+ Pdf pages- $7. > > > > > > > > > On Aug 16, 2004, at 12:41 PM, Brent Flaco Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > Has anyone ever built a home using stones with cob as mortar? > > > Given > > > > you have a rubble trench footing. Also interested in > "plastering > > > a > > > > cob home on the south facing sidewith stone, perhaps like veneer > > > > stones, flag stones, or mayb embedding smooth flat stones > gatherd > > > from > > > > the coast. The stones will be great for insulation-radiation > > > > purposes. I guess one could do a whole room on the interior > that > > > way > > > > with stones, coral, shells, and starfish for the bathroom beach > > > > effect. I have seen cob benches in portland with mosaic work so > > > this > > > > idea of stones seems reasonable? > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Coblist mailing list > > > Coblist at deatech.com > > > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 9 > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:03:14 -0500 > >From: "Mary Lou McFarland" <louiethefifth at hotmail.com> > >Subject: [Cob] RE: clay& bool > >To: Coblist at deatech.com > >Message-ID: <BAY18-F10mIz0ucTxhH00041f48 at hotmail.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > > >When using this method ,is there any effort to plaster over the > mortar area? > >or with so little cob showing is any protection redundent? IAre the > stones > >embedded during construction or is this added later as a siding? In > the > >area where the building sits ( from your attachment) is the > weather severe > >with driving winds and rain or is it just a temporate climate? > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's > FREE! > >http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 10 > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:26:48 -0500 > >From: "Amanda Peck" <ap615 at hotmail.com> > >Subject: [Cob] RE: Stone in cob > >To: coblist at deatech.com > >Message-ID: <BAY8-F19Anv2Ew2wDeW000070af at hotmail.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > > > > >Probably. > > > >For sure Rob Roy and Ianto Evans did some cordwood masonry with cob > as > >mortar. > > > >A propos of not a whole lot, I've been reading a mystery story > involving an > >earthquake. Author gives lots of information about earthquakes. Her > point > >is that the sizes and shapes of particles in mortar are what is > important, > >not all the same, and for sure not all rounded. (Sarah Andrews, > Fault Line) > >.................. > >Brent Flaco Wilson writes: > > > >Has anyone ever built a home using stones with cob as mortar? Given > you > >have a rubble trench footing. Also interested in "plastering a cob > home on > >the south facing sidewith stone, perhaps like veneer stones, flag > stones, or > >mayb embedding smooth flat stones gatherd from the coast. The stones > will > >be great for insulation-radiation purposes. I guess one could do a > whole > >room on the interior that way with stones, coral, shells, and > starfish for > >the bathroom beach effect. I have seen cob benches in portland with > mosaic > >work so this idea of stones seems reasonable? > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on > how to > >get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 11 > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:51:59 -0700 > >From: "Bonnie Morse" <bonnie.morse at content-mgmt.com> > >Subject: RE: [Cob] RE: Stone in cob > >To: <coblist at deatech.com> > >Message-ID: > > <NOEJLLELMNNFELDCMLHKCEHCCGAA.bonnie.morse at content-mgmt.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >My old Materials Science book from college said that gravel with > sharp edges > >makes stronger concrete than gravel with smooth edges. I guess the > same > >would apply to sand particles in mortar or cob. > > > >Bonnie in OR > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: coblist-bounces at deatech.com > [mailto:coblist-bounces at deatech.com]On > >Behalf Of Amanda Peck > > > ><snipped> > > > >A propos of not a whole lot, I've been reading a mystery story > involving an > >earthquake. Author gives lots of information about earthquakes. Her > point > >is that the sizes and shapes of particles in mortar are what is > important, > >not all the same, and for sure not all rounded. (Sarah Andrews, > Fault Line) > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 12 > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:20:41 -0700 > >From: otherfish <otherfish at comcast.net> > >Subject: Re: [Cob] RE: Stone in cob > >To: Bonnie Morse <bonnie.morse at content-mgmt.com>, > > <coblist at deatech.com> > >Message-ID: <BD469D68.552C%otherfish at comcast.net> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > >Cob gets it's strength from being built massivly as COB, not > something else. > >Cob bonds well with cob, but poorly with other materials. Cob as > mortar > >will do little more than simply fill the spaces between whatever you > are > >mortating. The compressice strength of cob is low comparred to > cordwood or > >stone. Using cob as a mortar in a stone or cordwood construction > will make > >the mortar the weakest link in the wall system. > >Not something I'd do. > >If you want a mortar that doesn't use portland cement, go for lime > sand > >mortar. It haS a long history of successful use as mortar. > > > >john fordice > > > > > >on 8/16/04 3:51 PM, Bonnie Morse at bonnie.morse at content-mgmt.com > wrote: > > > > > My old Materials Science book from college said that gravel with > sharp edges > > > makes stronger concrete than gravel with smooth edges. I guess > the same > > > would apply to sand particles in mortar or cob. > > > > > > Bonnie in OR > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: coblist-bounces at deatech.com > [mailto:coblist-bounces at deatech.com]On > > > Behalf Of Amanda Peck > > > > > > <snipped> > > > > > > A propos of not a whole lot, I've been reading a mystery story > involving an > > > earthquake. Author gives lots of information about > earthquakes. Her point > > > is that the sizes and shapes of particles in mortar are what is > important, > > > not all the same, and for sure not all rounded. (Sarah Andrews, > Fault Line) > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Coblist mailing list > > > Coblist at deatech.com > > > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 13 > >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:32:59 -0400 (EDT) > >From: "phil" <phawn1 at excite.com> > >Subject: Re: [Cob] RE: Stone in cob > >To: otherfish at comcast.net, bonnie.morse at content-mgmt.com, > > coblist at deatech.com > >Message-ID: <20040817143259.66C3F3DF3 at xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > >We are currently working on a cob-cordwood home here in NC. We have > added about 5% lime to the cob for extra strength and short of taking > a sledge hammer to the wall (I dare anyone to do that to their home) > it has bonded well witht he wood. VERY hard and quick setting as a > mortar. We also haven't had a lot of shrinkage. Time will tell as to > durabilty. > > > >Phil Hawn, President > >The North Carolina Natural Building Coalition > >http://naturalbuilder.org > >cob, strawbale, cordwood and other sustainable earthbuilding > techniques > > > > --- On Mon 08/16, otherfish < otherfish at comcast.net > wrote: > >From: otherfish [mailto: otherfish at comcast.net] > >To: bonnie.morse at content-mgmt.com, coblist at deatech.com > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:20:41 -0700 > >Subject: Re: [Cob] RE: Stone in cob > > > >Cob gets it's strength from being built massivly as COB, not > something else.<br>Cob bonds well with cob, but poorly with other > materials. Cob as mortar<br>will do little more than simply fill the > spaces between whatever you are<br>mortating. The compressice > strength of cob is low comparred to cordwood or<br>stone. Using cob > as a mortar in a stone or cordwood construction will make<br>the > mortar the weakest link in the wall system.<br>Not something I'd > do.<br>If you want a mortar that doesn't use portland cement, go for > lime sand<br>mortar. It haS a long history of successful use as > mortar.<br><br>john fordice<br><br><br>on 8/16/04 3:51 PM, Bonnie > Morse at bonnie.morse at content-mgmt.com wrote:<br><br>> My old > Materials Science book from college said that gravel with sharp > edges<br>> makes stronger concrete than gravel with smooth edges. I > guess the same<br>> would apply to sand particles in mortar or > cob.<br>> <br>> Bonnie in OR<br>> <br>> -----Original > Message-----<br>> From: coblist-bounces at deatech.com > [mailto:coblist-bounces at deatech.com]On<br>> Behalf Of Amanda Peck<br>> > <br>> <snipped><br>> <br>> A propos of not a whole lot, I've been > reading a mystery story involving an<br>> earthquake. Author gives > lots of information about earthquakes. Her point<br>> is that the > sizes and shapes of particles in mortar are what is important,<br>> > not all the same, and for sure not all rounded. (Sarah Andrews, Fault > Line)<br>> <br>> <br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> Coblist mailing > list<br>> Coblist at deatech.com<br>> > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist<br><br><br>___________ > ____________________________________<br>Coblist mailing > list<br>Coblist at deatech.com<br>http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo > /coblist<br> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > >The most personalized portal on the Web! > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Coblist mailing list > >Coblist at deatech.com > >http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > > > >End of Coblist Digest, Vol 2, Issue 72 > >************************************** > _________________________________________________________________ > > Visita MSN Latino Noticias: Todo lo que pasa en el mundo y en tu paín, > ¡en tu idioma! [1]Clic aquí > >References > > 1. http://g.msn.com/8HMAESUS/2755??PS=47575 >_______________________________________________ >Coblist mailing list >Coblist at deatech.com >http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist
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