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[Cob] size of houses and building sustainablyAlexander Ihlo alexander.ihlo at gmail.comMon Oct 5 19:59:57 CDT 2009
I'm new here and don't want to step on anyones toes, but I agree about sustainable building. If you use a machine to do a bunch of gruntwork you aren't building unsustainably. You actually take that machine away from causing damage somewhere else first and foremost. Second, most machinery is diesel (could turn biodiesel pretty easily...). Diesel engines are much more powerful than gasoline also, which means more efficiency. Diesel burns less to do the same job. Overall, using machinery could also increase the marketability of building with cob for permitting and for buyers/builders. If a place appears to look like a modern construction site rather than a rag tag group covered in mud, you will increase the credibility and appear more professional. ...and we do live in a superficial world, so appearances count. 1. Downside is, machinery costs money: to rent a backhoe here in connecticut is about 500 dollars for a couple of days. Money requires fossil fuels to earn, and to print/distribute. 2. Machinery also requires a lot of equipment and fossil fuels to create, plus the fossil fuels required to operate them. 3. Shortcuts don't create as nice of a home. A handsculpted house is the idea that got me into this, but I live in the age of computers and I want things done fast, even though it won't feel as nice at heart. Could probably list more points on both sides but this sums up what I can think of for both sides. Sorry if I'm late on this I'm doing the digest version of cob list... On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 3:00 PM, <coblist-request at deatech.com> wrote: > > Send Coblist mailing list submissions to > coblist at deatech.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > coblist-request at deatech.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > coblist-owner at deatech.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Coblist digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: any cobbuilders in Belgium or neighbouring countries? > (Mia Hessel) > 2. Re: size of houses and building sustainably (Robert Alcock) > 3. feel of cob (livin_and_learnin at yahoo.com) > 4. Re: size of houses and building sustainably (Dean Sherwin) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 23:46:49 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mia Hessel <tinkasbonus at yahoo.dk> > Subject: Re: [Cob] any cobbuilders in Belgium or neighbouring > countries? > To: coblist at deatech.com > Message-ID: <233218.2014.qm at web23805.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > You might want to see the cottage in Thorup, Sj?lland, DK. I believe it is one of the biggest in Denmark and also one of the only 'code-approved' under the harsh danish rules. Maybe not so close to Belgium. Maybe the best alternative would be to see the ones in the UK > ? > http://dyssekilde.dk/ix.asp?m=4030 > ? > Regards Mia H > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Skal du k?be ny bil? Sammenlign priser p? brugte biler med Kelkoo og find et godt tilbud! - Se mere her http://dk.yahoo.com/r/pat/mmb > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:24:08 +0200 > From: Robert Alcock <ralcock at euskalnet.net> > Subject: Re: [Cob] size of houses and building sustainably > To: coblist at deatech.com > Message-ID: <4AC9AD28.8060307 at euskalnet.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Actually, most of the work we do is by hand or using hand-held tools > (some manual, some electrical). We use a rotavator for mixing cob and a > cement mixer for making slip to apply to the bales. This is actually > more energy-efficient than doing it by hand and foot, unless the people > doing the mixing are eating a locally, sustainably grown diet - remember > that every calorie you eat equals typically 10 calories of fossil fuel > in growing, transporting, processing, packaging, etc! > > I am well aware that we are not building sustainably yet - we are only > trying to learn to do so. I think that the most sustainable way of > mixing cob (at least the mineral components) would be to use earthworms. > They are the experts. Lay down your layers of sand and clay, put some > earthworm food (leaves, etc) on top, and let them go to work. A couple > of years later, you add the straw, give it a final mix and away you go. > But you need to be patient! > > There's a post about mixing cob with a rotavator on our website, at > http://www.abrazohouse.org/?p=183 > > All the best > > Robert > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 16:02:22 -0400 > > From: Damon Howell <dhowell at pickensprogress.com> > > Subject: Re: [Cob] size of houses and building sustainably > > To: coblist at deatech.com > > Message-ID: <0BE59233-2212-4DF2-8484-1B00FC524F62 at pickensprogress.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > > Robert, you guys at the Abrazo House have much more experience than > > I, but I noticed from the photos on your website that most of your > > work is by machinery. Hardly sustainable, don't you think? Not > > knocking it at all, in fact, I encourage the use of machinery because > > otherwise it's a pain in the back. I have finally come to understand > > there is such thing as good enough after I did it all by hand. Why by > > hand? Just to show myself I could. I'll do everything with a machine > > if there is a next time! But sustainable? Not as long as there is a > > machine involved. If we all built our homes from cob but with > > machines it would only offset the energy it takes to cut and mill > > timber, mine and form steel, and heat sand and make cement. There is > > no REAL savings as far as Earth is concerned. But still, I would > > probably sleep better at night knowing my cob house was accepted by > > building officials. I mean one day I might want a family but if DFCS > > found out they'd put an end to it because the county didn't approve > > of my cob house. I look forward to the day we all can build cob > > legally. - Damon > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 14:57:13 -0700 > > From: Ocean Liff-Anderson <ocean at woodfiredeatery.com> > > Subject: Re: [Cob] cob building design acceptance > > To: coblist at deatech.com > > Message-ID: <3D741439-3DDC-4108-A3FF-DDBE3708891D at woodfiredeatery.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > > I believe the reason British cob is square lies more in the fact that > > rectilinear design was the standard, and that after exhausting all > > the timbers on the isle the only material left to build with was the > > earth. The British (and British Columbians) recognize the strength > > and longevity of the cob due to their multi-century experience with > > cob buildings (many cob cottages in Devon were built in Medieval > > times) . > > > > Ianto and Cob Cottage Co teach that curvilinear walls are stronger > > than rectilinear. This may or may not be true. But I know for one > > that there is a "felt sense" of satisfaction, security, "hominess" in > > a Cob-Cottage-style curvilinear building that I just don't feel in > > square traditional (and even straw bale) structures. This may just > > be a bias, or I'm drinking the cool-aid offered by Ianto, but also I > > would suggest we all read the third section of "The Hand Sculpted > > House", written primarily by Linda Evans, which focuses on the > > healing and spiritual aspects of cob buildings. If it is too "woo- > > woo" for some, that's OK, but it does give greater context for Cob > > Cottage's rationale for curvilinear design. > > > > I would also suggest a reading of Christopher Alexander's "Pattern > > Language" which Ianto draws from extensively in his emphasis we > > design from the occupants perspective - rather than from traditional/ > > conventional mindset - which lends to an elegance and simplicity not > > found in conventional buildings. The Pattern Language helps explain > > why one can feel more complete in the Evan's 200 square foot Heart > > Cottage, but lost and alienated in your standard 4000 square foot > > "Sports Utility House" (to borrow Rob Bolman's term). > > > > Peace to all, > > Ocean Liff-Anderson > > Proprietor, FireWorks Restaurant > > Corvallis, Oregon > > http://FireWorksVenue.com > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: coblist-bounces at deatech.com [mailto:coblist- > >> bounces at deatech.com] On > >> Behalf Of Damon Howell > >> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 10:47 AM > >> To: coblist at deatech.com > >> Subject: [Cob] cob building design acceptance > >> > >> Just to be simple on the attempt to get cob approved, how much does > >> the design (i.e. shape) of a cob house have to do with persuasion? > >> Cob homes here in the states are organic shaped whereas the ones I've > >> seen in Europe are more straight forward. Maybe a big reason for this > >> is the Cob Cottage Company's suggestion of designing your house > >> around your daily activities. I mean, if I were an inspector and > >> someone come to me with a design that had curved walls I would > >> automatically say it wasn't going to work. BUT, if the same person > >> came to me with a four-corner, straight walled design I'd be more > >> accepting of the plan, as long as I could see first hand the material > >> it was going to be built of. Why are Americans such "purists" and > >> want to build their "illegal" homes to look like something out of a > >> fairy tale? Besides it's cool and it's possible. I'm sure the English > >> recognized the plasticity of cob but they didn't push it beyond four > >> corners. > >> Damon in GA > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Coblist mailing list > >> Coblist at deatech.com > >> http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Coblist mailing list > >> Coblist at deatech.com > >> http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 09:57:23 -0500 > > From: <howard at earthandstraw.com> > > Subject: Re: [Cob] cob building design acceptance > > To: <coblist at deatech.com> > > Message-ID: <DFE74027656A46D8A9474845C37F1053 at h4howard1> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > >> Ianto and Cob Cottage Co teach that curvilinear walls are stronger > >> than rectilinear. This may or may not be true. > >> > > > > Not sure why you would choose to doubt this, Ocean, I learned that in 9th grade science class ...or was it Mr. Wizard. In any case like an egg shell it is a pretty obvious. Try stacking bricks in a straight wall one brick thick, then try stacking them in a serpentine wall.... > > > > Howard Switzer, Architect > > 668 Hurricane Creek Road > > Linden, TN 37096 > > 931-589-6513 > > www.earthandstraw.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ocean Liff-Anderson > > To: coblist at deatech.com > > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 4:57 PM > > Subject: Re: [Cob] cob building design acceptance > > > > > > I believe the reason British cob is square lies more in the fact that > > rectilinear design was the standard, and that after exhausting all > > the timbers on the isle the only material left to build with was the > > earth. The British (and British Columbians) recognize the strength > > and longevity of the cob due to their multi-century experience with > > cob buildings (many cob cottages in Devon were built in Medieval > > times) . > > > > Ianto and Cob Cottage Co teach that curvilinear walls are stronger > > than rectilinear. This may or may not be true. But I know for one > > that there is a "felt sense" of satisfaction, security, "hominess" in > > a Cob-Cottage-style curvilinear building that I just don't feel in > > square traditional (and even straw bale) structures. This may just > > be a bias, or I'm drinking the cool-aid offered by Ianto, but also I > > would suggest we all read the third section of "The Hand Sculpted > > House", written primarily by Linda Evans, which focuses on the > > healing and spiritual aspects of cob buildings. If it is too "woo- > > woo" for some, that's OK, but it does give greater context for Cob > > Cottage's rationale for curvilinear design. > > > > I would also suggest a reading of Christopher Alexander's "Pattern > > Language" which Ianto draws from extensively in his emphasis we > > design from the occupants perspective - rather than from traditional/ > > conventional mindset - which lends to an elegance and simplicity not > > found in conventional buildings. The Pattern Language helps explain > > why one can feel more complete in the Evan's 200 square foot Heart > > Cottage, but lost and alienated in your standard 4000 square foot > > "Sports Utility House" (to borrow Rob Bolman's term). > > > > Peace to all, > > Ocean Liff-Anderson > > Proprietor, FireWorks Restaurant > > Corvallis, Oregon > > http://FireWorksVenue.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: coblist-bounces at deatech.com [mailto:coblist- > > > bounces at deatech.com] On > > > Behalf Of Damon Howell > > > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 10:47 AM > > > To: coblist at deatech.com > > > Subject: [Cob] cob building design acceptance > > > > > > Just to be simple on the attempt to get cob approved, how much does > > > the design (i.e. shape) of a cob house have to do with persuasion? > > > Cob homes here in the states are organic shaped whereas the ones I've > > > seen in Europe are more straight forward. Maybe a big reason for this > > > is the Cob Cottage Company's suggestion of designing your house > > > around your daily activities. I mean, if I were an inspector and > > > someone come to me with a design that had curved walls I would > > > automatically say it wasn't going to work. BUT, if the same person > > > came to me with a four-corner, straight walled design I'd be more > > > accepting of the plan, as long as I could see first hand the material > > > it was going to be built of. Why are Americans such "purists" and > > > want to build their "illegal" homes to look like something out of a > > > fairy tale? Besides it's cool and it's possible. I'm sure the English > > > recognized the plasticity of cob but they didn't push it beyond four > > > corners. > > > Damon in GA > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Coblist mailing list > > > Coblist at deatech.com > > > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Coblist mailing list > > > Coblist at deatech.com > > > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Coblist mailing list > > Coblist at deatech.com > > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 20:37:33 +0200 > > From: Ben <waterdruppel.x at gmail.com> > > Subject: [Cob] any cobbuilders in Belgium or neighbouring countries? > > To: coblist at deatech.com > > Message-ID: > > <b39bbcd20910031137u6488f8efj4cd5cb90bffe8b36 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Hi, > > > > Are there any active cobbuilders in Belgium or neighbouring countries? > > I'm entirely new to cobbuilding, currently I'm reading "the hand-sculpted > > house" book and the more I read, the more I'm convinced I want to build my > > own cobhouse. But I'm really curious to see (and feel) an existing cobhouse > > in real life instead of just pictures. Through Google I can't find any Cob > > activity in or around Belgium. > > > > Greetings, > > Ben > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Coblist mailing list > > Coblist at deatech.com > > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > > > > End of Coblist Digest, Vol 7, Issue 164 > > *************************************** > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 06:12:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: "livin_and_learnin at yahoo.com" <livin_and_learnin at yahoo.com> > Subject: [Cob] feel of cob > To: coblist at deatech.com > Message-ID: <15994.28383.qm at web31404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Yes, there's nothing like a cob home.??It feels?solid, massive, strong, and enduring; and it makes me feel protected, self-reliant, honest, and calm!? I can't even entertain the thought of NOT living in one.? Stick-built leaves me cold! > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:48:53 -0400 > From: Dean Sherwin <costman at verizon.net> > Subject: Re: [Cob] size of houses and building sustainably > To: coblist at deatech.com > Message-ID: <0KR100GP0QHGRHJ3 at vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Building sustainably does not mean living in the stone age. A > building typically uses 90% or so of the total resources (that means > essentially, energy) consumed during its long life, the other 10% > during its construction. So designing and building for low energy > use and durability is by far the most important part of > sustainability. The use of a machine for a few days is such a minor > part. It can easily be offset by other factors - less journeys by > workers to the site since they dont have to do all that hand > construction, another couple of square feet on your solar collector, > a better window... Lets make earth in general and cob in particular > a viable material for our sustainable future. > > > At 03:00 PM 10/3/2009, you wrote: > >But sustainable? Not as long as there is a > >machine involved. If we all built our homes from cob but with > >machines it would only offset the energy it takes to cut and mill > >timber, mine and form steel, and heat sand and make cement. There is > >no REAL savings as far as Earth is concerned > > > > Dean Sherwin CPE > Certified Professional Estimator > LEED Accredited Professional > CONSTRUCTION COST MANAGEMENT > 3, Cherry Street > PO Box 11 > Media, PA 19063-0011 > (610)892 8860 > fax (610) 892 7862 > costman at verizon.net > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Coblist mailing list > Coblist at deatech.com > http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist > > > End of Coblist Digest, Vol 7, Issue 166 > *************************************** -- Alexander Ihlo www.greypages.us 24 Middle Street New Milford, CT (203) 770-4165
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